WWD Meeting

[Pepper Potts]

Welcome to the fifth WWD Meeting!

Hey that's my line!
Changes to the rules and Guidelines
Open floor

Hey that's my line!
The largest part of role playing is the interaction between players. We all base our posts on what previous players have written in a certain scene or situation.
In order to keep that experience as pleasant as possible for all players, we need to respect each others creativity and writing.
This means - among other things - reacting accordingly to what other players have written, and respecting whatever decisions they make regarding their characters. This also means no decisions can be made for them regarding their character or the development of the storylines they have come up with.

If we wish to see a certain story develop in a certain way, we can't decide for ourselves to further the story and decide what'll happen when the players affected by this have had no say in this.

However, if we never come up with stories, or try and further a storyline where would we be?
So we encourage you all to think of creative ways to imply players from the opposing sides in storylines that transcend the FGB or ADA and come together in WWD.
We encourage you to think outside the box, to challenge and defy your fellow role players but we encourage you to do it respectfully and never without consulting each other or the game management in the case of a huge storyline change that alters the interactions between sides drastically.

It is for that reason that we've added a few rules to the WWD Rules & Guidelines (http://www.midnight-shadows.org/showthread.php?t=2491) and we kindly urge you to read and follow them.

Changes to the WWD Rules & Guidelines

Some of you may have noticed already a few things have changed in the WWD Rules & Guidelines. First and foremost we've given the thread a new and fresh look (many thanks to Chrissie) but the content has also changed.

Here's a summary of the new additions/changes:
Making decisions about a player's story, history or future without said player's input or permission is not allowed
Minor changes in storylines involving two sides should always be discussed by all those implied or affected before being played out
Major storyline ideas that would affect the whole of ADA and FGB should always be subject to WWD management approval before being allowed
No determining the outcome of your attack before the opponent replies
In multiplayer situations, one person cannot determine the outcome of an attack or story for the entire group.
You can only attack 2 opponents per post.


In addition to this, we've added a clearer explanation on obtaining second, third and fourth characters.

Open floor
Feel free to discuss not only the above mentioned changes, but anything pertaining the game!
Your ideas and input are what make this game the joy it is to play!

[Hush]

First: I'd like to throw a big thank you out for the entire WWD Management for making a point to make a meeting and get through some updates. It's been long overdue that we all come together to discuss this game.

But what is there to discuss? The tragedy of it all is that no matter where this meeting goes, it's going to be very difficult for this game to continue to grow like it has in the past. The only thing that has happened in recent times that I feel did a beautiful job at keeping people around was becoming more relaxed an open to new character developments.

Maybe this will come across as a bit harsh or a bit offensive, but I want to ask everyone if they even remember the time when this was a fierce battle RPG. Do you remember when you had to know quota before you were allowed to be promoted past your beginning level? I do. I also remember the time when public fight threads were usually reaching 200 posts every two weeks or so. We hardly have the numbers to spark that kind of interest but we also have a rather low interest in combat left to begin with. As hard as it is to believe, this game is a battle RPG and that aspect of it is very near and dear to my heart. We're so far away from that, characters don't even know about the existence of demons. I don't understand.

I'll add more as the discussion goes on.

[Phoenix]

Maybe this will come across as a bit harsh or a bit offensive, but I want to ask everyone if they even remember the time when this was a fierce battle RPG. Do you remember when you had to know quota before you were allowed to be promoted past your beginning level? I do. I also remember the time when public fight threads were usually reaching 200 posts every two weeks or so. We hardly have the numbers to spark that kind of interest but we also have a rather low interest in combat left to begin with. As hard as it is to believe, this game is a battle RPG and that aspect of it is very near and dear to my heart. We're so far away from that, characters don't even know about the existence of demons. I don't understand.

I'll add more as the discussion goes on.

I know that I haven't been as active here lately, but honestly, what Todd says here is exactly what is fueling that lack of urgency on my part to post and do something I genuinely enjoy. This game has turned more into a traditional RPG with magical powers rather than the powerhouse Battle RPG it once was. I remember a time when if you walked away for 20 minutes, you missed two pages of battle posts and had to go fishing for things directed toward your character.

This is what drew me to the game in the beginning. While I understand that many don't like to fight, they are creating characters who refuse to fight at all in a battle between good and evil. What is the purpose in creating a character in a Battle RPG if one does not want said character to ever see the battlefield? To that end, the general lack of activity in the fight threads has made me so disconnected from the game because the aspect that I love the most - the fighting - has been diminished to the backdrop, reserved mainly for tournaments.

I just don't see the vigor in the game that was once evident. This is not a slight to the leaders because they have tried and are trying, not even to specific players; it's just a general observation.

[Hush]

Mike said it rather well but I'd like to reiterate it: none of this is about the questioning of leadership. However, it feels like now is the time that we need to ask for there to be some intervention.

This game has the option of really going back to the Battle RPG format or it simply needs to become freeform and state that it's freeform. I wouldn't even mind that so much as long as realism was stuck to.

I also believe we need to integrate a lot of public settings into the WWD forum to make demonic threats more real. Take away some of those safeties that are so easy to rely on and start leaving the risk out there. Demons would have to worry about being discovered. Good creatures would have to worry about being attacked.

That's just one idea. Either way, the structure in the WWD doesn't necessarily lack, but we need to take some of those public settings and throw everyone into them, together.

[Human Torch]

I love character development like anyone else, but I agree with Todd and Mike, the fighting, training, tournaments, etc. is what initially drew me to this game. Granted, as I am still finding my footing again in this game, I'm glad that I can focus on character development, but I foresee a WWD fight in my future. I think it's necessary to further develop the characters. I feel like there's such a divide, even between the players of the FGB and ADA because I am not posting in the same threads as the players that are solely ADA. Of course, this is on me as well.

I like Todd's idea of some more settings that do not provide the safety nets.

As far as the summary of the rules, I think they make sense.

[Pepper Potts]

I hear what you guys are saying!

Back when I joined, in FGB, sides were private, promotions were done after finishing mandatory group missions and you didn't ask, you waited to receive.
The focus was on the battle, on the fighting aspect of the game. Hell, the members of the opposite sides were even really seen as the enemy. WWD was a place bustling with activity. And it's great to reminisce and think back to that but it doesn't do us any good to dwell on the past.
We need to move forward, and move this game forward.

That said, I agree with the fact that the 'Great Divide' isn't just a name of a subforum anymore, there truly is a divide between the players. And as much as I would want to be able to do that: you can't force players to interact...
What I'm interested to know is: why is there such a divide? Why do some people have characters that aren't about fighting the battle between good and evil? What makes a person create a certain character?
I ask this not as a reproach or with a pointing finger, I am merely curious to see if the reasons for doing so can somehow be worked on so that there is no longer that need to stay within a respective side but make it so a character is created, from the get go, with the intent to be part of the entire game.
I see a lot of characters being created for the sole purpose of fitting into an existing storyline, or I see storylines being the basis for creating new characters. People no longer use the premise of the game to fit their character into the great war, they use their own private stories. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing; anything creative gets merit in my book but I believe it's one of the reasons why the game is moving away from the battle aspect and becoming more of a Reality RPG like you see so many around.

Creating new venues, adding in that aspect of being found out is a good first step but I'm sure we can think of more ways than one to make it more about the fighting again.
Keep those thoughts coming!

[Stereo Love]

I have to agree that the WWD has become somewhat of a reality RPG. Many of the characters and their posts I've read about are about relationships, friendships and some sort of daily drama. I agree with Mike in the way that sometimes I feel no inspiration to post because of the lack of fighting. It's all well and good for people to post saying they want to fight, but when it actually comes down to it, 5 posts just to show it in a promo request really isn't that encouraging. I'm not pointing fingers because hell I know in the past I've been like that.

I do agree that there is a great divide between sides BUT! (You may not like this) over time the FGB and ADA have grown in features and the WWD has been stripped of them. The FGB/ADA side forums have so many different types of threads/features that in all honesty could do with just being put into the WWD. I personally would like to see the FGB/ADA slightly decreased in size and the WWD pumped up to show that it's more about the WWD than who's doing what on what side.

That's all I can think of to say right now, I'll post more during the duration of the meeting. :)

[Hush]

That said, I agree with the fact that the 'Great Divide' isn't just a name of a subforum anymore, there truly is a divide between the players. And as much as I would want to be able to do that: you can't force players to interact...
What I'm interested to know is: why is there such a divide? Why do some people have characters that aren't about fighting the battle between good and evil? What makes a person create a certain character?
I ask this not as a reproach or with a pointing finger, I am merely curious to see if the reasons for doing so can somehow be worked on so that there is no longer that need to stay within a respective side but make it so a character is created, from the get go, with the intent to be part of the entire game.
I see a lot of characters being created for the sole purpose of fitting into an existing storyline, or I see storylines being the basis for creating new characters. People no longer use the premise of the game to fit their character into the great war, they use their own private stories. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing; anything creative gets merit in my book but I believe it's one of the reasons why the game is moving away from the battle aspect and becoming more of a Reality RPG like you see so many around.

Let's see how many people hate me after this post.

I honestly think that there needs to be some policing done on biographies. If someone's geared entirely for character development, it's about time we asked how they're even meant to fit into the design of this game and start denying people promotions if there's not combat under their belts. I think you have to start fighting or you're not allowed to reap the rewards and benefits.

But I honestly think some people see this game and what it can bring to their characters rather than what they can bring to this game with their characters.

And to everyone who has characters that are strictly character development: I mean no disrespect to any of you. I do love the fact that there can be some kind of character development that isn't superficial and I love that you all helped me get away from literally fighting all the time. However, there are better outlets for this than this game.

Battle doesn't work if no one's fighting.

[Obsidian]

I've been reading along (several times) and done some thinking over what's been said here. I love that you're still keen for the fighting (those of you that have made the effort to post here) and it's amazing that the early days with WWD as a Battle RPG are still a big part of some of our memories. It's something I don't want to lose from the game either.

I honestly think that there needs to be some policing done on biographies. If someone's geared entirely for character development, it's about time we asked how they're even meant to fit into the design of this game and start denying people promotions if there's not combat under their belts. I think you have to start fighting or you're not allowed to reap the rewards and benefits.

Personally? I'd do this. But then, I don't shy away from the controversial ideas or the questionable choices. If there was enough backing in the game to do this, I'd definitely want to implement it. Members - and leaders, in a different respect - complain about a lack of power usage posts and then don't do anything about it.

If each person made just one post a day (or every other day or even once a week), our combat section might be very different to what it is now. In fact, that applies to WWD in general. It's a hard choice to be tough to a minority of members when the majority aren't doing anything. Gradually, over the years, it's gotten worse. As a leader, it's a balancing act in promo requests.

If there's anything else that anyone would like to raise, please do. This meeting is open for everyone to throw in comments or suggestions about WWD, whether it's about what we have or what we don't have. The game can only survive as long as its members continue and you are the voice of WWD - here is the place to be heard. If you'd like to stay anonymous, by all means, PM me to add anything you want to the discussion.

[Callista]

While I understand that many don't like to fight, they are creating characters who refuse to fight at all in a battle between good and evil. What is the purpose in creating a character in a Battle RPG if one does not want said character to ever see the battlefield?
Why do some people have characters that aren't about fighting the battle between good and evil? What makes a person create a certain character?
First of all, I feel that I should point out that even though I know that the people that have posted in this meeting aren’t doing this to make their dislike of non-fighting characters known, I did personally feel that characters that don’t fight were under attack here, and since both of my characters are pacifistic beings that refuse to use their powers for anything other than sheer comfort, I wasn’t planning on posting here in the first place simply because I know that minds are made up, and I felt that my opinion would fall on deaf ears. But now I am writing this, and whether it matters or not, I think someone needs to step up for the character development, non-battle side of the RPG that we all care so much about.

I’ll start by saying that I believe that the term Battle RPG is no longer appropriate for WWD. As you have all said, the battle between good and evil has become less and less important, and so to continue to call it a Battle RPG seems rather useless. So that solves the first problem: the problem of creating a character in a battle RPG if the character doesn’t want to see the battlefield. I came to this forum about two years ago, and never in that time have I been drawn to the battle aspect of the game. I’m a writer at heart, and although I do believe that some attacks are incredibly creative and well-played, the realism of any battle is one that I think is too difficult to describe without deviating from a character’s realistic personality. Unless your character was born a fighter, there is just no way to realistically weave bloodshed, murder and mayhem into their lifelines.

I take great pride in the realism of my characters, which extends even to one of them having post traumatic stress disorder from the amount of blood she’s seen over the past years. I created her with the single purpose of her being a realistic person, the kind of person you could run into in the streets, and so having her running around, attacking demons, not caring about disappearing or dead friends simply wouldn’t work. And I’d hate to have to leave the game for the simple reason that realism, the kind of realism that makes it possible to create a character that doesn’t enjoy bloodshed, is no longer appreciated.
The way I see it, the Forces of Good, the side I’m on, does not serve only as an army to hold the demons at bay. For my two characters, it’s somewhere they can feel safe, somewhere they’re not the only ones who know about magic. I’m sure that if it suddenly became obligatory for all members to fight, the entire reason for them to even be there would be negated, and so I’d have no choice but to retire both of them and find a new RPG that doesn’t revolve around battle.

About the promotions: I remember that when the FGB Guides announced that character development posts became more important when applying for promotions, just about every active player was thrilled. Activity picked up, more people got promoted and all in all, everyone was excited. Missions could be requested for character development, and I thought that finally things would no longer be about fights no one was willing to fight. However, I also know that promotions shouldn’t only be about character development. Knowing that I’d never get a single fighting post for either one of my characters, I have settled for them being the level they are now, and I’m no longer planning to go for any promotion, simply because I respect the fact that power usage is necessary for higher levels. I have about 300 posts stacked up for a promotion I know I’ll never apply for, and I believe that if the leaders decide to make promotions once more all about fighting, fewer people would apply and the whole game could stagnate. Demons, who in general are more about fighting and mayhem, would continue to go up in levels, while there would be few promotions on the FGB side to match their numbers.

I think the idea that if we go back to the way things were before, when the RPG really was about fighting, activity will automatically pick up again and more people will join, isn’t right. I think it’s wrong to assume that to begin with. Activity may be down, but has it occurred to you that maybe that’s because this game is simply moving forward? There can’t always be the same level of activity, and I don’t believe it’s right to force active players to go back to the way things were in an attempt to gain more posts.

For now, this is all I have to say. I simply thought someone should be defending the character development side of the RPG, which is the only reason I’m posting this at nearly midnight. I might post again if I feel the need to, but at least now my opinion’s known, and I’m sure I’m not the only one who thinks this way. If WWD turns into nothing but a great war that urges every character to fight, I know that I’ll be leaving. And I don’t think I’m the only one.

[Hush]

Personally? I'd do this. But then, I don't shy away from the controversial ideas or the questionable choices. If there was enough backing in the game to do this, I'd definitely want to implement it. Members - and leaders, in a different respect - complain about a lack of power usage posts and then don't do anything about it.

If each person made just one post a day (or every other day or even once a week), our combat section might be very different to what it is now. In fact, that applies to WWD in general. It's a hard choice to be tough to a minority of members when the majority aren't doing anything. Gradually, over the years, it's gotten worse. As a leader, it's a balancing act in promo requests.

If there's anything else that anyone would like to raise, please do. This meeting is open for everyone to throw in comments or suggestions about WWD, whether it's about what we have or what we don't have. The game can only survive as long as its members continue and you are the voice of WWD - here is the place to be heard. If you'd like to stay anonymous, by all means, PM me to add anything you want to the discussion.

I appreciate the support, Gina. I'm not implying that you're solely supporting Mike or myself but it is nice to know that there is something to be said for combat, still.

My concern in this solely lies in the outsiders looking in. If there is a title for a forum that clearly states that it is "Good vs. Evil" then clearly that's what you want to see when you arrive in the forum. But no. We barely have that. And the opportunities are potentially endless with the set-up of the game that we have here, so I don't understand how.

There should be opportunities for this. If you want to contract a demon to kill an NPC and have it scare the living daylights and build on that character development in a Vision Quest thread, DO IT.

First of all, I feel that I should point out that even though I know that the people that have posted in this meeting aren’t doing this to make their dislike of non-fighting characters known, I did personally feel that characters that don’t fight were under attack here, and since both of my characters are pacifistic beings that refuse to use their powers for anything other than sheer comfort, I wasn’t planning on posting here in the first place simply because I know that minds are made up, and I felt that my opinion would fall on deaf ears. But now I am writing this, and whether it matters or not, I think someone needs to step up for the character development, non-battle side of the RPG that we all care so much about.

I’ll start by saying that I believe that the term Battle RPG is no longer appropriate for WWD. As you have all said, the battle between good and evil has become less and less important, and so to continue to call it a Battle RPG seems rather useless. So that solves the first problem: the problem of creating a character in a battle RPG if the character doesn’t want to see the battlefield. I came to this forum about two years ago, and never in that time have I been drawn to the battle aspect of the game. I’m a writer at heart, and although I do believe that some attacks are incredibly creative and well-played, the realism of any battle is one that I think is too difficult to describe without deviating from a character’s realistic personality. Unless your character was born a fighter, there is just no way to realistically weave bloodshed, murder and mayhem into their lifelines.

I hope it's quite clear that your interpretation is incorrect. Characters created solely for character development in a game that is a battle RPG are currently under attack by me. I can't speak for anyone else, mind you and I make no apologies for my stance.

The confusion here seems to be relying on character development in a safe and controlled environment is the only kind of character development. Let me tell you, just from personal experience, that I have a very scarred character who has lost many people to evil and the way I play him reflects that.

Furthermore, I wonder where exactly it is said that the battle between good and evil is "less important." I don't see this written anywhere that is meant in any other way than to imply the opinion of the majority. This game is a Battle RPG. It's merely the members' failings that were addressed by me, not the game's.

The idea of bloodshed and violence and mayhem does seem like a stretch, though. I can absolutely see that. However, that does not limit you from looking for stories with demonic characters (as you've exhibited before Daphne, so I'm unsure of your opinion here). Sure, characters that are exposed to bloodshed aren't the same. It can bother them. One of my characters hasn't seen bloodshed but he's well enough afraid of it for it to make sense and he's trying to learn how to control what powers he has so that he doesn't have to end up dead if he has to venture out somewhere that isn't within the Forces. There are ways to make the battle aspect work for your character. If all you do is make a thread where your character is constantly on the run from some demon that wants them dead and they live in a state of constant fear and only get away those few times by using their powers, you've satisfied your combat requirements. People don't get that the combat part isn't just directly involved fighting. It could be RPed in a more approachable way by limiting the quota used by both you and the demon and finding a way to give a solid exchange between the two to where your character escapes.

My question I'd like to pose is: Is anyone asking for these things? Is anyone really asking? I know I could get a WWD thread within the next 24 hours and it wouldn't have to be specifically geared towards direct combat but the give and take of using powers on one another would satisfy my requirements for combat.

I take great pride in the realism of my characters, which extends even to one of them having post traumatic stress disorder from the amount of blood she’s seen over the past years. I created her with the single purpose of her being a realistic person, the kind of person you could run into in the streets, and so having her running around, attacking demons, not caring about disappearing or dead friends simply wouldn’t work. And I’d hate to have to leave the game for the simple reason that realism, the kind of realism that makes it possible to create a character that doesn’t enjoy bloodshed, is no longer appreciated.
The way I see it, the Forces of Good, the side I’m on, does not serve only as an army to hold the demons at bay. For my two characters, it’s somewhere they can feel safe, somewhere they’re not the only ones who know about magic. I’m sure that if it suddenly became obligatory for all members to fight, the entire reason for them to even be there would be negated, and so I’d have no choice but to retire both of them and find a new RPG that doesn’t revolve around battle.

I do agree, that the Forces are not meant to be an army and it is meant to be just as much a home as anything else. However, it's meant to be a home for people dedicated to keep evil from uprising.

I also think it's a bit low to discuss realism here. There is always going to be an element of realism with every character, unless incredibly poorly played, and to imply that others aren't priding themselves on the realism of their characters by fighting is offensive.

But no one is saying that you'd have to leave the game. Let's make that perfectly clear. However, it would be next to impossible, without some combat to obtain a promotion or reap other benefits. That's how I feel and I believe that's how everyone who is participating in this meeting feels so far.

And I'd very much like an example of someone who is walking around, hunting/killing demons and not paying attention to dead friends. As far as I know, that's not happening and won't be happening any time soon.

About the promotions: I remember that when the FGB Guides announced that character development posts became more important when applying for promotions, just about every active player was thrilled. Activity picked up, more people got promoted and all in all, everyone was excited. Missions could be requested for character development, and I thought that finally things would no longer be about fights no one was willing to fight. However, I also know that promotions shouldn’t only be about character development. Knowing that I’d never get a single fighting post for either one of my characters, I have settled for them being the level they are now, and I’m no longer planning to go for any promotion, simply because I respect the fact that power usage is necessary for higher levels. I have about 300 posts stacked up for a promotion I know I’ll never apply for, and I believe that if the leaders decide to make promotions once more all about fighting, fewer people would apply and the whole game could stagnate. Demons, who in general are more about fighting and mayhem, would continue to go up in levels, while there would be few promotions on the FGB side to match their numbers.

I think the idea that if we go back to the way things were before, when the RPG really was about fighting, activity will automatically pick up again and more people will join, isn’t right. I think it’s wrong to assume that to begin with. Activity may be down, but has it occurred to you that maybe that’s because this game is simply moving forward? There can’t always be the same level of activity, and I don’t believe it’s right to force active players to go back to the way things were in an attempt to gain more posts.

For now, this is all I have to say. I simply thought someone should be defending the character development side of the RPG, which is the only reason I’m posting this at nearly midnight. I might post again if I feel the need to, but at least now my opinion’s known, and I’m sure I’m not the only one who thinks this way. If WWD turns into nothing but a great war that urges every character to fight, I know that I’ll be leaving. And I don’t think I’m the only one.

The game is stagnant to begin with. You all wonder why there are no demons around here... you're not giving them anyone to play with! Demons in the Academy don't get levels just because they blink their eyes at it and they would hardly get promotions faster because they are "more inclined" to mayhem. Promotions are a slow and tedious process because they have to prove they're inherently demonic and no one here seems to want to give them someone to hunt.

But by all counts, no one is here to devalue character development. That's absolutely absurd. If I couldn't have my light and fluffy threads to balance out my character that could render almost any demon useless with a few hand gestures, I would go insane. So let's just stop. Right now. Let's stop acting like someone is criminalizing character development. It's important and it's a necessary part of this game and it's also the reason why we have Into the Unknown for personal threads now rather than Grudge Matches. It's also why the Vision Quest forum was introduced ages ago. Because there are other ways to interact with truly evil characters (and vice versa) to create compelling and brilliant character development.

Let me make myself clear: Your characters wouldn't even need powers if demons weren't supposed to be a threat.

And for good measure, no one is forcing your hand to do anything. What is merely being proposed is to start letting this game live up to it's reputation and it's presentation. In a game that's presented as a war of Biblical proportions, we have no one giving a rat's rear-end about the risks of demons and merely staying high up in their ivory towers in fear and the demons are standing in wait.

How is a game moving forward when all we do is watch activity continue to remain constant with a set group of players? No new members? No one looking to change the current dynamic that causes a rift between the FGB and ADA? That's not a game. That's a rut. That's a nightmare if you ask me. And no, I'm not saying that the fix is to refocus the game dominantly towards combat, but you lose the entire purpose of this game without it.

And if those people feel the need to impress upon the other members that they would like to avoid stressing combat in the future and keep things as they are, they should speak up. I'm sorry but leadership is responding to what they're seeing from member feedback. If members don't give feedback, the leaders have nothing to go on.

[Pepper Potts]

It is never my intention to offend. As I stated in my post, I wasn't pointing fingers, I was merely curious as to the reasoning behind creating a character. I know why I create my characters the way I do, that doesn't mean somebody else does it the same way.
That being said, I must add that I don't really understand the purpose of creating a character that has no intention of going into battle or no intention of even throwing so much as a fireball at something or somebody. Not when you're creating such a character in a battle RPG. And this is still, and will always be, a battle RPG.
You say we should simply stop calling it a battle RPG and the problem will be solved? Well, what about the reverse: people should just start posting fight posts and the problem is solved. You see where that's sort of a black and white reasoning where a little bit of gray would go a long way.

It's all about compromise, it always will be.
I for one have nothing against going back to checking biographies to get a feel of where the character is going and how it ended up in this world of magic to begin with. I feel there's a certain premise to this game, it's only logical we fit our characters into that premise.
If I were to create a character on another board, where the premise is a boarding school sort of thing, would I create a demon? No. It wouldn't make sense. It wouldn't fit into the premise to make a character that has powers when no mention of that is made in the concept of the game. The same goes for our RPG: it is about an epic battle between good and evil, creating a character here implies (more or less) that you part take in that battle. And where I can your point that it's more logical for demons - inherit to being evil - to use power and fight, I have always seen the FGB as a place where witches were trained to fend off evil.
At the risk of being too nostalgic, I think back to the days when I started, in the FGB and where a large part of characters' storylines were about their quest to find more power and train it and harness it to do good and to protect the innocent. Of course there was always a good side serving of drama, you need drama. Drama is your friend.
But the drama was not the main issue.

Promotions shouldn't be all about fighting. But promotions shouldn't also involve a fix number of posts to be made for a certain aspect of the game.That's just my opinion. I feel leaders are there to look at each person's work, follow the members in the game and, come promotion, should be able to judge whether a person deserves that promotion based on what they know and have read. I feel promotions should be less about the numbers but that's neither here nor there at the moment and it's not what the discussion is about. Not entirely at least.
Character development should be a large part of what would make a person eligible for promotion. Of course we like to see fleshed out characters, with a history that's been thought about, with a goal, a purpose. But I think we forget sometimes that these characters are set in a battle RPG and as such will need some fighting action.

I certainly don't want to take the fun out of the game, but then, for me, the fighting is fun too so I'm biased perhaps.
Still I'm certain we can find middle ground here, some sort of compromise to get this game back to it's roots without taking the fun out of it for anybody :)
That's what discussions are for right? To learn from each other and find ideas by listening to one another :nod:

[Callista]

I know I could get a WWD thread within the next 24 hours and it wouldn't have to be specifically geared towards direct combat but the give and take of using powers on one another would satisfy my requirements for combat.

Were we talking about power usage? From what I've read, the focus of this meeting seems to be on the lack of actual fighting going on, and simply using powers to satisfy combat requirements seems like one of those things frowned upon in the rest of the posts here. Having one character using powers on the other is either solely for fun or for battle, and reading this just frustrates me: first saying that fighting is necessary and then mellowing it down to 'give and take of using powers on one another'? A fight's a fight, and especially if we're discussing the lack of posts in fight threads which seems to be another important point of this meeting, emphasizing character development based power usage seems useless.

There is always going to be an element of realism with every character, unless incredibly poorly played, and to imply that others aren't priding themselves on the realism of their characters by fighting is offensive.

If you think I was implying that I'm the only one proud of my character's realism, you're wrong. I know that every person has realism in their characters, and every single player has the right to be proud of their characters and the way they are played. What I was trying to point out was that I love my characters, and I'm not going to sacrifice realism just to get some lousy power usage posts in. I'm not sending a traumatized character into a fight thread, and to say that that's a failure on my end is something I do take personally. We all know characters live their own lives, and if my character develops into someone that wouldn't use her powers against someone if her life depended on it, that's just the way things are, and I'm not going to apologize for it. Thinking a character is of lesser value because it doesn't take part in this 'epic battle' is just nonsense. Denying biographies because they are not focused on doing the right thing seems just as useless: don't we want character diversity? Do we want all the characters in the game to be fierce, to be obsessed with power and how to get more of it? Wouldn't that get boring?

But no one is saying that you'd have to leave the game. Let's make that perfectly clear. However, it would be next to impossible, without some combat to obtain a promotion or reap other benefits. That's how I feel and I believe that's how everyone who is participating in this meeting feels so far.

I didn't say I would leave the game because I can't get promotions without fighting. Because I know this, and I accept this, and I won't leave because of this. As I have said in my post, I no longer have any desire to apply for any promotions, and I'm fine with that because there is the character development side of the game I can occupy myself with.


But by all counts, no one is here to devalue character development. That's absolutely absurd. If I couldn't have my light and fluffy threads to balance out my character that could render almost any demon useless with a few hand gestures, I would go insane. So let's just stop. Right now. Let's stop acting like someone is criminalizing character development. It's important and it's a necessary part of this game and it's also the reason why we have Into the Unknown for personal threads now rather than Grudge Matches. It's also why the Vision Quest forum was introduced ages ago. Because there are other ways to interact with truly evil characters (and vice versa) to create compelling and brilliant character development.

Compelling and brilliant character development? I thought this was all about getting characters to fight, to make new rules and adjustments so that people would be more inclined to have the good guys fighting the bad guys. Although it has indeed been mentioned, I didn't think character development threads in WWD were the problem being discussed here.

How is a game moving forward when all we do is watch activity continue to remain constant with a set group of players? No new members? No one looking to change the current dynamic that causes a rift between the FGB and ADA? That's not a game. That's a rut. That's a nightmare if you ask me. And no, I'm not saying that the fix is to refocus the game dominantly towards combat, but you lose the entire purpose of this game without it.

What I meant when I said the game was moving forward, was not necessarily that it was expanding. What I meant that it was moving forward chronologically. Time passes, and things change. People change, characters change, settings change, and to suddenly want things to go back to the way they were is just ridiculous, if only for the fact that that set group of players that has been around for all this time has changed in the way they want to play, something that I think quite obviously shows in the lack of interest in fighting. Maybe it's not someone's failure that there are no more active fight threads. Maybe it's just a clear sign that WWD has changed, not necessarily for the worse, but simply different. Maybe it just needs to be accepted that the focus is on character development these days. Would you really want to keep people from creating new characters by refusing their biographies if they're character development based? That would do far more damage to the activity than staying in this rut you've described. It would be a limitation of creativity, and that is something I know I wouldn't appreciate, but I know that my opinion hardly matters when pure character development without usage of powers is so looked down upon.

And if those people feel the need to impress upon the other members that they would like to avoid stressing combat in the future and keep things as they are, they should speak up. I'm sorry but leadership is responding to what they're seeing from member feedback. If members don't give feedback, the leaders have nothing to go on.

I know that one of the reasons that I wasn't planning on posting here was because I know just how stubborn you can be, Todd. And that's not necessarily meant in a bad way. The problem simply is that I know that any discussion had with you is a lost cause, just because you're so damn clever. Anything said is immediately negated by solid arguments from your side, so taking the time to read all this and then posting, only to immediately have it undone is just a waste of time. It's too much work to keep up with the posts made here and trying to justify everything you're saying when it appears that the other participants of the discussion are on the same side, and against you. It's just easier to see what the outcome of the meeting is and deal with it.

[Pepper Potts]

Just for the record - and because I am quite pro discussion and wouldn't want this one to end simply because one party feels negated by the other: it's not a matter of being against one person or the other. I, for one, welcome more replies, more opinions, the more divers the better. I hope you don't feel people are teaming up on you, Daphne, because that certainly isn't the aim here. And I encourage you to take the time to read and reply to what's being said as your remarks are as valuable and clever as anybody else.

Also, just to be clear, we would never straight out refuse biographies. Let's make sure that that proposition doesn't lead a life of it's own: it hasn't even been discussed yet among the leaders, let alone been thought about. I just think that if we should ever think about this option it would work more along the lines of checking to see if the character logically fits the premise and just making sure that it makes sense.
Simply saying to a person he or she cannot join because the biography isn't that of a fierce combatant would be absurd.
But I do hope you can understand my point of wanting more involvement.

Another question for you all: would you contribute the lack of interest in the "good vs. evil" premise, and the lack of fighting, to the fact that it's been the same premise, same dynamic for all these years? And if so, would a change in that make for more interactions between witches and demons? Or is there another reason alltogether?

[Captain America]

I'm going to try and keep this brief because I don't want to waffle on or anger people by saying something stupid.

Anyway, I've got to agree with Daphne on this. Personally I don't see WWD as a Battle RPG anymore, I see it as an RPG wchich focuses on both battle and character development. Every player has their preferences but I think it's inevitable that each character has a bit of both. Taking Pandora for instance, she had a plot with Liambi which whilst not a battle (I could be corrected on this, I didn't read all of it), still encouraged interaction between characters on both sides. And then we have Teddy and although he hasn't come up against a demon, he's still training whilst also getting character development in his relationship with Rowan. I think that both elements come hand in hand and nobody can completely avoid one because intentional or not, it does seep into plots. I think defining WWD as a Battle RPG or a Character RPG is a mistake because honestly, in my opinion, it's a mixture.

Personally, I tend to focus on character development more and have said several times that Gray's scope isn't for fighting, it's to help move plots along - although if somebody wanted a fight with Gray (such as when Tom asked for a Gray/Elijah showdown in a combat thread), I certainly wouldn't say no because it's a fun experience and yes, it helps towards promotions. Meanwhile, I have Harry who, although he hadn't come up against a demon, has a scope much more geared towards battle and I'd jump at the chance to send him into a fight with a demon. My third character, Ash, is another geared towards character development but I think when he is more developed and I've got a better grasp of his character, he'll venture into battle. Even between my own characters, there's a mix of focus towards battle and character development.

So yeah, that's my opinion. Both are important but I honestly don't think one is more important than the other because in my eyes, they go hand in hand.

[Black Widow]

I want to add here that I agree with TomTom. Yes WWD is a battle RPG and the battle side of the game is important but I also think that character development is equally important. I don't think we should be arguing over which is better I think we should be focusing on how to incorporate both of those aspects into the game. I do think that the battle side of the rpg has been forgotten recently and maybe people do need reminding that the battle aspect of the game is important but I don't like the idea of going down the road of policing biographies and not allowing certain characters into the game.

I think we need to be looking at ways to encourage interacting between sides and increasing activity in the WWD, not just on the battle side of things but on the character development side too. I would never say that a character doesn't fit in this game just because they don't like to fight. Look at Willow, she isn't a fighter, she really has no idea of the big battle but that doesn't mean that she's useless. She's been out into the WWD, she's used her powers against demons and given the right situation she would fight. I think we need to look at throwing the good and the evil side together more - whether in big storylines or smaller plots - and I think once the two sides start interacting the fighting will happen naturally. The issue right now isn't that people don't want to fight but more that the sides don't seem to want to interact in any way.

Personally I'd like suggestions for ways to get the two sides interacting with each other and getting rid of this 'us and them' mentality that seems to be floating around. Would you like to see more big storylines involving both sides? More interaction of the guides and warlords? New thread? Something else? We need feedback from the members in order to keep the game going and if you don't tell us what you want, we're pretty much left guessing.

[Hush]

I only have a question to contribute. When did anyone actually suggest leaving character development behind for combat? I don't believe I see that anywhere in here.

I stand firmly against changing the basis of this game from a Battle RPG. Also, please refrain from using my characters as an example without my permission. I've already used that character as an example, therefore the repetition isn't necessary.

Were we talking about power usage? From what I've read, the focus of this meeting seems to be on the lack of actual fighting going on, and simply using powers to satisfy combat requirements seems like one of those things frowned upon in the rest of the posts here. Having one character using powers on the other is either solely for fun or for battle, and reading this just frustrates me: first saying that fighting is necessary and then mellowing it down to 'give and take of using powers on one another'? A fight's a fight, and especially if we're discussing the lack of posts in fight threads which seems to be another important point of this meeting, emphasizing character development based power usage seems useless.

You do realize that as much as having a fireball thrown at you and using one of your powers to avoid it is combat, correct? That's a "give and take" situation without having to exhaust your quota and that's entirely realistic and something just about anyone can deal with.

If you think I was implying that I'm the only one proud of my character's realism, you're wrong. I know that every person has realism in their characters, and every single player has the right to be proud of their characters and the way they are played. What I was trying to point out was that I love my characters, and I'm not going to sacrifice realism just to get some lousy power usage posts in. I'm not sending a traumatized character into a fight thread, and to say that that's a failure on my end is something I do take personally. We all know characters live their own lives, and if my character develops into someone that wouldn't use her powers against someone if her life depended on it, that's just the way things are, and I'm not going to apologize for it. Thinking a character is of lesser value because it doesn't take part in this 'epic battle' is just nonsense. Denying biographies because they are not focused on doing the right thing seems just as useless: don't we want character diversity? Do we want all the characters in the game to be fierce, to be obsessed with power and how to get more of it? Wouldn't that get boring?

Power? That's a laugh. It has nothing to do with power.

Compelling and brilliant character development? I thought this was all about getting characters to fight, to make new rules and adjustments so that people would be more inclined to have the good guys fighting the bad guys. Although it has indeed been mentioned, I didn't think character development threads in WWD were the problem being discussed here.

They weren't, but general interaction can still lead to some semblance of combat. I'm not going to repeat myself again. Character development is just as important as combat. I'm of the opinion that combat needs to be emphasized again. Never once did I say that combat should replace character development.

I know that one of the reasons that I wasn't planning on posting here was because I know just how stubborn you can be, Todd. And that's not necessarily meant in a bad way. The problem simply is that I know that any discussion had with you is a lost cause, just because you're so damn clever. Anything said is immediately negated by solid arguments from your side, so taking the time to read all this and then posting, only to immediately have it undone is just a waste of time. It's too much work to keep up with the posts made here and trying to justify everything you're saying when it appears that the other participants of the discussion are on the same side, and against you. It's just easier to see what the outcome of the meeting is and deal with it.

You act like I'm somehow going to affect the outcome more than you. That's incorrect. Yes, I am infinitely passionate about this game and when it comes down to making my point and having solid arguments, you bet your bottom dollar I'm going to try my hardest to be heard. That's the point of a meeting. Meetings, once upon a time, were much worse than having to deal with me being stubborn.

And now that we can get back to the point of the meeting that was discussed at the very beginning of this thread, it would be brilliant to find a way to merge the interactions with the ADA and the FGB more and remove some of the safety net. It would be a fast way to at least make minor combat (if it's so much as a character defending themselves and running away) happen more often and it would be a great way to start throwing all characters together so there would be more interaction in the game as whole. This is what I suggested earlier in the meeting. If both ADA and FGB characters exist on common ground like they would normally on say, Charmed (the original basis of this game), the risks would be higher and the potential for more stories would be greater. However, as I know my words will be twisted yet again, I don't think that should negate FGB-only or ADA-only threads to satisfy alternative forms of character development.

[Drown the Demon]

Although I may have left, I'm hoping that it doesn't discount my own two cents. In fact, the last thing that happened when I left was something even I consider very small, but was more along the lines of the last straw of quite a few different things that happened over the years, but the entirety of that list isn't under discussion.

But part of what's involved IS the fighting aspect. Left to my own devices and provided everything's running smoothly (IE, correct power uses on both sides, no overdodging, realism taken into account, etc. etc.), I enjoy it. In fact, it used to be one of my favorite aspects of the game back in the day, but lately, even when it does happen, things have quite clearly gone downhill.

For one, while we're all happy to get into the drama side of the character development, for some odd reason, when people get into fights (and I admit, I have been guilty of it from time to time) people start to take things personal. Someone does something in a fight that's particularly damaging and, regardless of whether or not it's realistic and within game rules, people take offense. What makes it worse is that there seems to be a preference of people to fight a particular way and have a particular fight style and on at least one occasion, there has been a penalization for hitting too hard in a fight thread of all places. I know and understand people have preferred ways of fighting, but shouldn't variety be encouraged? If I can't go into a fight thread and fight the way I enjoy, it ends up becoming a chore. On top of that, if I'm forced to scale back my fighting techniques because someone might be too sensitive about me having my character make their character **** a cactus (:-p), what's the point of there being 6 levels if we're gonna be expected to fight as level 3/4 all the time? Mind, I understand and would encourage restraint if it's a high level fighting a low level, but there's been a couple instances where upper levels were fighting amongst themselves such as in the tournament and I saw some irritation expressed both publicly and privately about people hitting too hard.

I'd rather like to suggest some sort of voluntary rubric/secondary ranking system for the fighters. The levels T-7 tell the number of powers a person has available and the relative strength for the most part, but says nothing about just how dangerous a particular character is and that player/character's preferred fighting style. Maybe it could be posted up somewhere where person ranks themselves by their fighting style. Like on the lower end of the scale, you would have those who would mostly be character development that in a fight, they'd probably do little more than throw an occasional fireball around. Pretty easy, basic, close-to-non-dangerous power usage. In the middle, you'd have those who like to get creative with their moves, but don't go in for the kill. Clever combos, probably a little embarrassing their foe here and there, but again, probably not all that dangerous unless they really choose to be. Then on the higher end of the scale, you've got those that go full out, no holds barred in for the kill. No mercy, no holding back, go up against a person of this rank and you're dead.

Some might argue that it would be all lower levels in the low rank, middle in the middle rank and uppers in the last and for the most part, that will probably be the case, BUT there will be exceptions. I know when Mike (Ragnhall Tigris) was active, even at 2, you could place him in the higher catagory while I know some currently active 6's that would be comfortable in the lowest. I think if such a ranking system were public somewhere with people posting their preferred rank (and maybe some other member/7 input if a person ought to be somewhere else in the ranking), it would be easier to match up people to preferred fighting styles. Maybe it could even have some influence on pairings in tournaments because seriously, even if you pair up a deadly level 2 to a passive level 6, I don't doubt there'd be some issue if that 2 gets too hard-hitting. I mean, some people would say that the 6 could handle it and they probably could, but if a 2 is clever enough to be ranked as deadly, they might not enjoy that pair up and the fight wouldn't be as fun. :shrug:

Policing biographies: hell to the no. Again, this was done before and frankly, it sucks. I mean, this is an RPG where we're supposed to come here and have fun, not a gated community. We go down that path and you'll start seeing people having to create identical cookie cutter characters for the most part. I mean, for now it might start small. Post something in the biography that gives a character a reason to fight. Don't make them all passive. Then what? Put them in a specific age range? Can't be too old or young? Don't give them maybe some sort of physical flaw like an allergy or other weakness that may be used against them in a fight? Must they be insane? Will insanity be no longer allowed? Or some other attempt at giving them some sort of creative aspect be outlawed simply because someone feels uncomfortable about it being there?

I agree, some power usage ought to be required for promotions. Frankly, sometimes I think there's not enough focus on it. Hell, the last tournament pretty much showed that very few of us were capable at wielding the powers we had at our own level. At the absolute very least, a person should be fully capable and knowledgeable about ALL aspects of their current powers with their limits and capabilities before moving onto the next level. Because honestly, what else do you get when you level up? More powers and a boost to your existing ones. That's it. Character development gets very little through leveling except perhaps having your character screw up a little when they get new powers, but that's pretty much it and by the time you're ready to level, both they and you ought to have a handle on the powers anyway. Second would be overall activity in not only the character's side, but the game as a whole in fights, RP threads, offices/meetings and jobs and put character development at dead last. It's important and it's a big part of the game yes, but again, it's not really needed when it comes to leveling and power usage at least not now, IMO.

But also given that this game has turned, by the members' own volition, towards character development, maybe there ought to be certain powers that could be introduced for that. Maybe a third choice per level in addition to the base/species power and ring/talisman. They'd have to be written carefully and/or stressed that the powers couldn't be used in fights, but it would be nice to add that additional dimension to the CD side and yes, could potentially provide yet another means to get the sides to interact through that aspect. I've suggested a few different ones in previous meetings, but maybe there could be something that, for the FGB, is specifically targeted towards demons (like maybe some sort of evil sensing thing) and for the ADA, something that's specifically targeted towards beings of good. Something that will flat out not work on people of the same side, but on those of the opposing side.

Event-wise, sure, that would be excellent. Nothing like the group missions given that in any form, they tend not to work out, but maybe something else. I wouldn't recommend too many big threads because then while they're initially active, they tend to die off because someone stops posting and then everyone ends up in a rut because they're stuck waiting for either the person who stopped posting or waiting on someone else who is waiting. It could be threads with people separated into smaller groups or maybe something where people of opposing sides voluntary pair up to either complete a task that has to do with this big plot or it's something they've branched off for themselves that has some sort of connection to it.

Now this is a stretch given how LONG ago it was, but how many people here remember the SPAM RPG back on C:TP? As I remember it, the premise was that there was this object that people were searching for. It had some funny Latin name I think, I can't quite remember. But there was nothing in the premise about what it was or why the people were searching for it. Just that it was important (at least this is how I remember. I unfortunately only got into it and got a group started about a month before it closed). People were put into groups and they created their characters. I believe the idea was that they were travelling together in search of this thing and it was pretty much up to them when they found it and when/if they did, what it did and what it was and why they were looking for it. It was sort of a "journeying" RPG I think (again, I'm kinda stretching here because I don't remember it all that well myself). But maybe a plot could be written up something similar to that, whether it's the original premise or something I grossly misinterpreted given how long ago it was.

Perhaps the members could be given a base to start with and then go from there, trying to figure out something about this object. There'd have to be something about it that would entail either a witch and a demon working together or maybe they could be fighting over some piece of the puzzle involved in looking for it. Maybe there could be special tags either put in through the board's tag thing (like in EC) or the members could use the board's tagging feature so the 7's can keep track of the threads. Depending on what goes on in these various threads, they could shape the plot and perhaps the 7's could use the info gathered from them to write up the occasional big thread (yes, I know earlier I said big threads in general don't always work, but maybe if it's written so the scene of the big thread is short, it ought to be fine). It would be an interesting way to get both members and the 7's involved in this plot and, if the demons and witches were to fight over the puzzle pieces, it would give them something to fight for, a real reason beyond them just being there, whether it's some magical relic or an NPC innocent they're trying to protect/kill/kidnap. Though if we go the magical relic route, there could be a focus on the relics referred to here: http://www.midnight-shadows.org/showthread.php?t=7704 It's got potential and this would be one way to get them revealed and into the game. :)

Oh and that reminds me. In the rules, it does state the capability of having a neutral character. One without powers that's entirely human. Maybe there could be something worked on for that? If there were actual non-NPC human characters in the game (or maybe they could be neutral magical beings with CD-type non-battle powers), it would provide someone for the FGB to protect and the ADA to kill/kidnap. Granted, given the premise of the game, someone would be kinda hard-pressed to think of a valid reason a pure human would be able to participate in some of the public thread, so I'm pretty sure it would have to be some sort of magical non-human. Maybe a disgraced demon or rogue witch stripped of their powers (unless maybe some similar, but weaker version of the powers are posted up that are common between the sides like TK, Glamour, what have you. Given that there'd probably be no level system, their powers, if any, would have to not only be weaker, but capped at a limit). Or maybe some sort of species unique to the WWD like a phoenix that's not bonded to an ADA summoner.

Potential phoenix abilities:

Some control over fire
Capable of resurrection/healing if burned (as in fire doesn't hurt them at all, but heals them if it touches a wound)
Bird/Firebird form

Perhaps a demon would want to go after them because their blood or some other part of them can be consumed to give immortality. Though it could also come with some sort of curse that if a person kills a phoenix, they die by fire after X number of days painfully, only to rise from the ashes and have to die again like that later.

[Black Widow]

What makes it worse is that there seems to be a preference of people to fight a particular way and have a particular fight style and on at least one occasion, there has been a penalization for hitting too hard in a fight thread of all places. I know and understand people have preferred ways of fighting, but shouldn't variety be encouraged? If I can't go into a fight thread and fight the way I enjoy, it ends up becoming a chore. On top of that, if I'm forced to scale back my fighting techniques because someone might be too sensitive about me having my character make their character **** a cactus (:-p), what's the point of there being 6 levels if we're gonna be expected to fight as level 3/4 all the time? Mind, I understand and would encourage restraint if it's a high level fighting a low level, but there's been a couple instances where upper levels were fighting amongst themselves such as in the tournament and I saw some irritation expressed both publicly and privately about people hitting too hard.


I just wanted to comment on this part. As far as I'm aware people have never been penalized for 'hitting too hard' in fight threads. The only times people would ever be penalized or be told to scale things back is if they were breaking the rules by doing moves that are considered instant kill (and against the rules) such as TKO'in/ripping out organs etc. As for the cactus move I think you'll find that would be above the rating that is applied to this game, it was the same issue that we had with roses being created around certain body parts - it went against the board limits.

[Drown the Demon]

Perhaps penalized was the wrong word (though mind, it did happen once), but I get the general feeling that hard hitting is very much discouraged. The last few times there have been tournaments, there'd been a lot of resentment in the background over fight moves, regardless of their validity. It's a pretty big joy-sucker when people have conflicting fight styles and end up paired against one another. Granted, when it comes to private fight threads, people don't have to fight people they don't choose to, but in tournaments, there isn't always that option.

[Iron Man]

I'd rather like to suggest some sort of voluntary rubric/secondary ranking system for the fighters. The levels T-7 tell the number of powers a person has available and the relative strength for the most part, but says nothing about just how dangerous a particular character is and that player/character's preferred fighting style. Maybe it could be posted up somewhere where person ranks themselves by their fighting style. Like on the lower end of the scale, you would have those who would mostly be character development that in a fight, they'd probably do little more than throw an occasional fireball around. Pretty easy, basic, close-to-non-dangerous power usage. In the middle, you'd have those who like to get creative with their moves, but don't go in for the kill. Clever combos, probably a little embarrassing their foe here and there, but again, probably not all that dangerous unless they really choose to be. Then on the higher end of the scale, you've got those that go full out, no holds barred in for the kill. No mercy, no holding back, go up against a person of this rank and you're dead. Ooooh, I see where you’re going with this (I think :-p) And I do like it!

Anyway, yes, WWD is a Battle RPG is a Battle RPG is a Battle RPG. The part where there are two opposing sides is the most important part to it and it should definitely stay that way.

Now, and this has been said before, the fact that character development is such a big thing these days, possibly bigger than fighting, was a gradual development. Back in the day when I joined, you were aching to get your hands on someone from the other side and tear them to shreds. It was normal to fight allies and foes alike. Fights didn’t need a reason. Fights simply happened. Only over time did we (the 7s of the time) enforce the char dev more and more.

So, as someone who’s argued (to hell and back) that char dev posts should have the SAME standing next to battle posts in promotion requirements I will stick to what I’ve said. But from what I’ve gathered, removing char dev is NOT what’s been suggested.

I wholeheartedly agree that characters who don’t fight and won’t fight should not be created. Simple as that. I’m not gonna suggest policing biographies. I’m gonna suggest that members actually make themselves aware of the fact that this is not simply the entire evil side vs. the entire good side. The Academy and the Forces basically are the armies. They are the fighting forces. Even if as a player you’re not throwing your character into every fight, or pick as many as you can, having someone who's not willing to fight join the Forces or the Academy doesn’t make sense. I mean, honestly … let’s thing IC for a moment – why would a Guide or Warlord want to have someone useless to the grander scheme?

Personally, I’m someone who refuses to go down the good old random fight path. I can’t do fights any longer without a damn reason to do so. Back then the timelines of our characters seemed … non-linear. You barely cared what came first and what happened after. You just did stuff because you needed it for promotion. But I currently am planning a storyline which for example should have a couple of nice fights coming up down the line… and IMHO that’s the kind of plotting people should be doing. But I think I’m somehow stating the obvious here.

So to sum this up – char dev is not going to go. Just because it is argued that fighting should be enforced, doesn’t mean the other part will be dropped. In the end, it’s the members and their interests and – no less – their RPing that brought the development I mentioned initially about. It should be the character development that brings about the fighting…

Perhaps penalized was the wrong word (though mind, it did happen once), but I get the general feeling that hard hitting is very much discouraged. The last few times there have been tournaments, there'd been a lot of resentment in the background over fight moves, regardless of their validity. It's a pretty big joy-sucker when people have conflicting fight styles and end up paired against one another. Granted, when it comes to private fight threads, people don't have to fight people they don't choose to, but in tournaments, there isn't always that option.

Let's be serious here. Fighting is, has been and will always be something that gets personal. It simply is that way. When you can't off someone on your own and you have the option to team up, then you do it. It won't get you sympathies because no one likes being beaten ... I dunno, it's always been a part of this game. Personally, it's something I've come to accept. :shrug: You get all worked up and grrrr when you fight and laugh about it afterwards on MSN. :-p I dunno, I don't get your point I guess ... it's fighting. It's about killing the opponent while trying to find something to either ward off or nullify (via rules) their attack.

[Tate Langdon]

Chrissie pretty much summed up my thoughts. It's about the balancing act between fighting and developing characters. Nobody is saying fighting must become the be all and end all (was it ever? I remember being invested in storylines outside of the arena during my early days as well as wanting to get out there and rip witches a new one :-p) but right now fighting it's dying a very long and drawn out death and we're trying to look at that. WWD is a Battle RPG. Call it what you like, spin it as you see fit, but that's what it's about. Good vs Evil.

I don't want to police biographies, but the simple fact is there are characters inappropriate to individual sides. Trying to shoehorn your character in because that's the type you want to play irrespective of the premise of the game seems strange and honestly, a tad disrespectful to me. I think it was Mari who summed it better than I can, but I'm not about to march into a BTVS RPG and create Clark Kent to play because that's what I want. There are going to be those types of characters who aren't blood thirsty and don't revel in the violence of things, but when it comes down to it they are the warriors for their respective sides and that is something you have to take into consideration when you join this game.

As far as promotions and fighting goes, and I can only speak for myself here, but compared to how they used to be getting up the levels is so much more about developing your character as a whole. Yes, I look to see that you've shown your face in WWD as well as FGB but that's not because I'm checking a box off my list, it's because I want to see that you're developing your character as a whole rather than focusing on single aspects of them. Some development you really can only get when you're playing with someone from the other side, and again for certain powers and combinations you can only really demonstrate them in a battle type situation. It's developing the whole character and all their aspects, rather than viewing fighting and character development in isolation of one another. To me they're parts of the same whole.

I'd also like to say that this is not about winning an argument. Everyone has a valid point of view, everyone has the right to share their concerns and I as I'm sure the other leaders are reading the responses and considering them individually. It helps to know how everyone views the game and the battle side of things if we're going to move forward. So please don't be afraid to voice your concerns because you feel you may be in the minority, I'd like everyone to have their say.

[Phoenix]

For the record, I never once said that I was against character development. In fact, it's as much a part of this game as the battling and I enjoy it. This much has been said already. I do not have much to add other than what I originally posted.

Everyone has their own styles when it comes to character development, however. My character, Julio, grows with his battles. With each fight against good, you can see his eventual descent into darkness. That is how I develop his character. I do not need him to have threads only dedicated to developing him as a character. I do, however, enjoy the impromptu - or planned - instances when he does get a chance to relax, talk, and reflect on himself.

My FGB character, DJ, if I chose to pursue him more, is probably the character I would not mind having threads where he only is developing story lines. Reason being, he has a much different outlook on the battle of good vs. evil. He thinks a lot like a Guide in that he answered the call to practice magic in order to protect his mortal students from demonic harm. This drives him and he would love the idea of growing magically to ensure their safety. His focus is NOT to go after demons at every turn and with every opportunity. Instead, he is more reactive, than proactive.

My other ADA character, Xavier, is more of the old-school ADA demon: let's go out and kill some witches! He could care less about pleasing anyone but his deity, and has no regard for life or order. His sole purpose since his transformation is to cause as much destruction as demonically possible.

I said all of that to say this: all of my characters were written with the premise of the game in mind. This is a battle. While 2/3 of them are not the types to dive headfirst into a battle or go searching, they are still mindful of their greater purpose.

If a character is created for the sole purpose of character development, they should not (and this has been stated previously) be able to move up the ranks because you're not fighting to show off skill. Again, I do not proclaim to be the master of character development threads, but I'm sure most power usage is in passing. Maybe to light a cigarette with pyro. Maybe have a storm form when you're angry. I don't know. I just don't see the purpose in creating a character in a battle rpg that has no intention of fighting at all. :shrug:

[Drown the Demon]

On a different topic (given that the previous fight/CD thing died and I have nothing further to say on the subject aside from what I've already said), I got to thinking that it could be both potentially useful and entertaining to have some sort of newspaper thing. I don't mean like the FiF, the ADA's paper or the WWD paper that was directed towards us/our characters, but a collection of news articles that could be cut from the papers of non-magical humans from the WWD-verse.

See, in just about every fantasy book I've read, the supernatural creatures have a code where they've got to keep themselves hidden from public view, just like ours do. In some of them, sometimes they reference reading the newspaper (especially if they're leaders of a group of magical creatures) to check and see if any of their activities had attracted mortal attention. Of course, they usually write it off with some other explanation on their own, sometimes they've got their own versions of cleaners that infiltrate the police/investigators or whatever to put in some false story to cover up their trail.

I'm figuring it would be kinda cool to have something like that up. Sometimes in threads, people do go to pretty public areas and do pretty impressive displays of magic and it would be neat to see something written up about how a non-magical human would view it from their perspective. And if a demon takes a human NPC hostage that the witch has to rescue, the article could include an interview with this hostage to get their story in which they could either tell the truth and have a psychologist explain it must've been the stress making them see things or, not wanting to be called crazy, they could make some stuff up and end up providing a cover for the demons and witches anyway.

That's all for the entertainment value, but as I stated, it could be useful too. Like in my case, it would be nice to have someplace where I could post up a news story with details of the students and staff of Bobby's school being discovered either dead or missing. Something like that would make the national news in the US, I would think, possibly international given the scale. Something like that wouldn't concern most of the magical community, no, probably brushing it off as it being just some psycho human killer (though it could easily be a demon), but those who knew Bobby was at that school could be concerned.

Also, those with demon chars could post things up with various destruction, mass murders, single murders and other things whereas those with chars in the forces could post things where a lot of good has happened and then IC, their chars could claim "I did that," or "I was there" or whatever. And if someone is potentially in there too frequently, the higher ups could either praise them if they're both doing well for their side AND doing a good job at covering their tracks or maybe there could be trouble if they're risking too much magic exposure. Characters could also read these articles and if there seems to be a demonic pattern frequenting a certain area and or possesses a certain MO, FGB chars could be inspired to do research and/or go to various potential areas in hopes of stopping the demon. Alternatively, if someone is doing too much good, it could be a sign of someone a demon needs to take out to even the balance and all that.

In short: Entertainment value because it'd be fun to read, useful because it could provide a springboard for storylines.

[Drown the Demon]

Just poking in for a little request from my fellow players on the other side. :D

Anyone looking to have a charrie either offed or otherwise wouldn't mind getting a little mauled? Mind, given that Bobby's currently low level and my physical skills can only get me so far, it probably wouldn't work against an upper level unless there's some IC trickery involved beforehand (which would entail a VQ that would then be moved to the OoO forum once the fight starts). I'd like to have her either kill someone or bring them to the brink of death and preferably if your IC Guide has a short temper because, yanno, pissing them off could be fun. :D Or even if they don't have a short temper, it could make for some fun drama.

[Zendatha]

Another question for you all: would you contribute the lack of interest in the "good vs. evil" premise, and the lack of fighting, to the fact that it's been the same premise, same dynamic for all these years? And if so, would a change in that make for more interactions between witches and demons? Or is there another reason altogether?

I would not know of another reason altogether why the lack of interest with the good vs evil theme or lack of fighting is growing, but the premise itself is not the reason. Granted, the premise has been updated from being almost Charmed-based, to the current premise we have about the Archons, an actual great divide, the Five Warlords who marched out of Hell, and the Five Guides who keep them from getting too rampant, but the theme behind it, good vs evil, didn't.

I don't think that changing the premise will get more people fighting, although it will get more interest since it is "new" or revamped. Fighting gets a bit boring at times if you simply fight for the heck of it, or just for promotion and not for an IC reason. As an example, when a witch or demon enters a non-free-for-all thread, they automatically know who's the witch, and who's the demon by attacking the demon (if you're a witch) and vice versa. The only exception or explanation I would see is if you've fought the witch or the demon before, if the demon's face is plastered on the FGB Hitlist (and vice versa), or one of your allies is fighting the opponent at the time you entered the thread. Other than that, I don't think anyone wore a shirt that said "I'm a demon" or "I'm a witch" when in an Open Fight thread. :-p

Would it help if, say, a group of demons are sent to slay some human because that human knows too much about the Underworld, and the Forces get a tip, which leads to the open Fight threads in WWD? Or a Forces trip is gang-banged by demons because the trip came too close to a little demon hide-out or great divide doorway?

Would a battle between ADA Psionics and FGB Psions, and ADA Temporalists and FGB Avatari to show who is better in their specialization help as a way to give IC reason to open fights?

Or have the Trainees march into WWD as a training exercise meant for IC promotion while newbie demons come in to show these trainees they joined the wrong side?

Maybe even have a WWD Staff made to play NPC's within certain threads to act as victims or spur a thread along

I suppose building the 'Coven' or 'Legion' pride may help keep things good vs evil in a way, just like back in the day. Or if someone from ADA had a secret relationship with someone from the FGB, it became an intriguing or alarming news, like taboo in a way.

How does scoring how many threads are dominated by a side, and at the end of that month, changing the colors/scheme/layout of WWD to show the dominating side's colors, insignia or whatnot sound, for the purpose of building coven/legion pride, or at least fighting to keep the color you'd like in WWD?

Or incentives for being active in WWD fights? Bonuses like in ADA Sekhmet Gifts or FGB Rings only available for use in WWD only?

Appoint certain Level 6's to act as what Level 7's do in WWD just like referees/announcers/whatnot (which puts less work for L7's)

My line of thinking is, the more focus on WWD is given, themore the divide is emphasized, and the more the good vs evil theme is spread?

[Drown the Demon]

I'm beginning to wonder if maybe the lack of interest in the WWD may be because we're always so serious in these meetings. I know ADA's meetings are full of banter and while FGB's meetings tend to be serious, they have their banter in the offices. Maybe the key is to tear down the walls a little and loosen things up and not have everyone so formal the entire time. *pokes you all*

Anyhoodles, like what's done in the meetings and offices, I'm gonna make another poke for a few threads. Bobby's went and gotten some feathers ruffled in the character facebooks, so anyone that wants to take it from there and have a thread with me, be it fight or RP, I'm game. Would be good to meet up with some previous allies and see where things stand as they are.

And also, ya'll, please get to posting in the Halloween event. Perfect opportunity to keep out HW zombies for indefinite period, replay old characters that used to be around and you offed for whatever reason and/or deceased characters connected to an existing charrie for present time character development. Tis getting a little lonely over there.

However, I would like to make a small request. Any chance that the bit about the "loss of alignment" could be dropped? I can understand having someone forget their mission and have them be focused on finding their lost loved ones et all because it gives them reason to seek out the one they've loved and lost and allows a focus on the magic, but letting them keep their alignment would make it slightly easier to figure out how to interact with others around them from opposing sides. It seems to be a common thing with events lately to have that bit lost. Anyway, there still is that 3 post fight rule to keep everyone from beating the everlasting crap out of one another and it works for Havoc. Tis part the reason I've not posted in some of the previous events myself, to be honest, but this one I just couldn't resist the opportunity. :$

[Iron Man]

However, I would like to make a small request. Any chance that the bit about the "loss of alignment" could be dropped? I can understand having someone forget their mission and have them be focused on finding their lost loved ones et all because it gives them reason to seek out the one they've loved and lost and allows a focus on the magic, but letting them keep their alignment would make it slightly easier to figure out how to interact with others around them from opposing sides. It seems to be a common thing with events lately to have that bit lost. Anyway, there still is that 3 post fight rule to keep everyone from beating the everlasting crap out of one another and it works for Havoc. Tis part the reason I've not posted in some of the previous events myself, to be honest, but this one I just couldn't resist the opportunity. :$

Line removed :nod: The spell no longer affects alignment.

[Drown the Demon]

Thankies Chrissie! :D

Hm, in my lurking as of late, I happened upon a bit of curious shiz popping up in some of the bios of some of the Guide/Warlord/Guardian/Dark Elder chars where there's something called the "Dossier Link." I know dossiers are usually files that contain info on people, sometimes similar to what we write about the characters in the bios, though they're sometimes shorted down into bullet points/notes/what have you. They appear to be inaccessible to public view. Just out of curiosity, I clicked the create bio links for each FGB and ADA and saw that there were boxes for members to post dossier links and that there's an asterisk beside them, indicating that a link is required. But unless we know where to link up to, it kinda makes submitting bios difficult. Is this something we're gonna be let on about or do we just post "N/A" until a 7 edits it in?

Mind, I'm also curious about why such a thing is there too if you're willing to share. :-p

[Pretty Reckless]

Well I can neither confirm or deny these things exist... :elol: But yeah, just add N/A for now if you need to edit/submit a bio. :-p

[Nefertiti]

You can now check the answer to that question here (http://midnight-shadows.org/showthread.php?t=9694). Feel free to ask questions about the Dossier in this meeting.

[Drown the Demon]

Is there a certain time period you'd like us all to post by? At the moment, my charrie's future is completely up in the air and dependent on what happens in one of my threads. She honestly could end up retired, switching back to the FGB, staying in the ADA or even becoming someone's HW zombie (though that could end up retiring her too since I would then either give her entirely to whomever is having their char take her as a zombie and let them play her or play her whenever they summon her) or pretty much anything else.

[Black Widow]

You can post as and when you like in the thread. To be honest though it doesn't matter if you don't know where your character is going in the future, the thread is an info thread to let people know what has happened/is currently happening with the character/if you're open for plots. It can be updated as often as you'd like and if you do retire the character you can just delete the info post.

[Ares]

So, looks like the board rating will be going through a change (http://www.midnight-shadows.org/showthread.php?t=9756). Can all members have a look at this and provide us with feedback. Should we allow mature content in the WWD? How will this affect how you play? Pros/Cons, etc. etc.

The whole restructuring will take a huge amount of work on the administrator side, and we wanna ensure that it is a step in th right direction before comitting ourselves further.

[Drown the Demon]

I'm definitely open to it. From what I can tell, it would open the scope a little more in what we can do. And given the nature of WWD, what with it (at least in part and this was a source of debate earlier in the meeting) being a battle RPG, it would make things easier to have a clearer definition of what is and isn't allowed during fight scenes. When it comes to the chars that are more promiscuous, which seems to be more frequent nowadays, I don't see anything changing for them from what the rules state so I don't see any adjustment for them they'd need to worry about except the need to tag any of their threads. I'll probably have further questions as things go on, but for now, this is just for my own curiosity: the drug usage and tagging. Now mind, I don't have any drug using or dealing characters at the moment (though I do know of at least one that is), but I do have a drunk that was briefly part of an RPG that closed that I may or may not bring back in another at some point of the opportunity and inspiration arises, but if someone does have a character that is constantly drunk/high/otherwise has some form of drug on them at all times, is each and every thread they're in to be tagged or just those if the drug/alcohol become more of a focus (like they're going to go acquire it somehow or if someone comes to talk to them about it to either get high/drunk with them or take it away)?

[Pepper Potts]

To answer your question Codi, let's take our beloved Mari. She's not averse to a high or two. She can hold her liquor.
Let's say Mari got drunk or high before hand, not describing how she got high or drunk anywhere, and enters a thread drunk or high just playing out the effects of that high or that drunkenness there wouldn't be a need for a tag. Nothing explicit is described, all in all it's just a drunken person in a bar for instance.

Now if that same Mari were to take out her mirror and her razorblade, depicting the use of her drugs, how she got them in her body, giving some background info on the drugs as well, being rather graphic in how she described that scene, the thread would definitely need a tag.
Same with if she were to be drinking herself into oblivion, glorifying binge drinking, and describing over and over again what she was doing.

Is that difference somewhat clear?

As for the promiscuity: you'll find a lot more has changed than you would originally think, but we're still looking for a suitable example to make it clearer what goes and what doesn't :nod:

We rather you all ask as many questions as possible so we can make your RPing experience here all the more fun instead of having to constantly come down on you like a ton of bricks for things that could easily have been explained with an example or two :)

[Drown the Demon]

Yes, it's clear. :nod:

Alright more questions. I see that it's been put into effect in WWD, such as at least one member clearly having their account flagged as them being underage both upon looking at their profile and some new additions to the postbit. I noticed that now there is an option near where one can click whether or not they want their signature to show a new option to "Flag this post as mature." Upon going to the advanced posting screen, I noticed a warning indicating that if a post is flagged as mature that the entire thread would become mature.

Now does this mean that guests and those flagged as underage would be unable to see not only the flagged post but the entire thread? I'm sure the person in question would have no issue about me or anyone else going as far as the new rating would allow, but I reckon they would not be pleased if they were suddenly booted out of a thread because of that. If it does render the thread hidden, I am guessing you'd prefer us to keep to the previous rating?

[Iron Man]

If one post in a thread is flagged as mature, it will indeed hide the post content of every single post for an underage person in that thread - this is why it's HIGHLY important to for example accept that public / non-limited threads should not be used for posting mature content. I can understand that anyone not yet of legal age might not be happy about basically getting booted from a thread but that's the way it's gonna go. If this person's fellow players decide to put mature content into a thread, the "underager" will no longer be able to see any posts. Try to regard it from an adult's point of view - more importantly, from a parent's.

Implementing the automatic hiding of post content is not about whether someone not yet of legal age would mind or not mind what you or other players put into a post. It is about what is suitable for them and what isn't. And, I'm sorry, there is not going to be any discussion on that. It really is up to the adult players to remember that when engaging anyone underage in roleplaying certain content is simply a no-go.

And now, let's remember that this one underage person is turning 18 in 4 months anyway.

I'd like to note that adult members also have the option to hide mature content per default - they, in turn, however, will only have the actual posts that are flagged hidden, not the entire thread.

[Hush]

And just for good measure, I wanted to add something to what Chrissie said here. It is not only discouraged, but likely not allowed to turn a public thread into a thread with mature content. I realize that doing such a thing can happen accidentally but I imagine there will be a way to correct it and public threads are meant to stay exactly that: public (let me know if I'm wrong, Chrissie). The mature content filter is far more suited to threads that are meant for a set group of players.

[Iron Man]

No, you're perfectly right, Todd. Such rules are not yet in place but for obvious reasons are likely to be installed.
And yes, if it happens accidentally, a moderator (so one of the 7s in this case - or a head mod / admin) has the option to remove the flag from a thread. :nod:

[Ares]

See here's the problem we were facing with mature content.

Up until now we have willingly allowed those over 13 to join this board. We did this because we enforced the PG-13 rule. Therefore, if we now allow mature threads, then those threads cannot be in plain view of these minors, otherwise we are, in affect, willingly supplying such information to a minor which, in most countries, is illegal. No one here is going to commit a crime.

Therefore, we need a way to hide such posts from minors. Now, the easiest but we think the least attractive option is to simply have a 'mature' forum and selectively decide who has access to that forum. However, this brings with it its own problems and has been turned down in the past. Therefore, we thought hiding the content of a thread at the most basic level would be much more appropriate (and we just have the very talent Chrissie, who is making that happen. Much love.)

So, I understand that people may not like the idea of 'kicking' out minors from their thread when they want to get their smut on, I do want you all to know that if you guys willingly share such info with underagers, you will be also committing a crime. It's the best compromise we could come up with, and I think it will really work on MS.

Also, yeah, what Todd said. If you make a public thread Mature, then your post will more than likely will be deleted and the rating returned back to normal. If there is demand for Mature public threads, we will look into it. :)

[Drown the Demon]

For any of ya'll that can get to it, any and all of my threads within One on One and Vision Quest except for Claws of the Tiger and the Luca/Bobby thread can be deleted (as in completely as opposed to just moved given that all characters aside from mine that were involved in the threads are retired or would not be seeking promotion because they can't get any higher or most likely only RPed in the threads for promo purposes that they've already acquired).

[Funny Girl]

Friendly head's up that the Castle of Illusions (http://midnight-shadows.org/showthread.php?p=283019#post283019) is set to Mature, but I couldn't find a mature post (I could've missed it, though). When I went to deactivate the mature setting in the original post, it just bumped me back and kept it as mature. Thought you might want to know :-p

[Hush]

Tricky thing about the Mature setting is that once it's there it has to be removed by a game mod, if I'm not mistaken. But, that's why we has the mods. :-p

[Nefertiti]

Un-matured it for you :-p

[Obsidian]

For any of ya'll that can get to it, any and all of my threads within One on One and Vision Quest except for Claws of the Tiger and the Luca/Bobby thread can be deleted (as in completely as opposed to just moved given that all characters aside from mine that were involved in the threads are retired or would not be seeking promotion because they can't get any higher or most likely only RPed in the threads for promo purposes that they've already acquired).

We won't be deleting any threads and threads will be archived at a point when a 7 determines the forums to need a clear out (which is usually based on date).